Texas Rainmaker » Problem Solved?

Problem Solved?
April 25th, 2007 4:25 pm

Apparently having solved all other issues on campus, the University of Virginia has passed a resolution apologizing for slavery.

So people who’ve never owned slaves have now apologized to people who’ve never been slaves. Brilliant.

Now I’m ready for somebody who’s never done anything to me to apologize for something I’ve never personally suffered.

I’m waiting…

29 Comments »

Now I’m ready for somebody who’s never done anything to me to apologize for something I’ve never personally suffered.

OK, I guess it’s WAY past time…

TR, I’m sorry for that time I didn’t beat your #ss in elementary school and didn’t take your lunch money. That would have been incredibly cruel of me…had I done it…which I didn’t…but I’ll apologize anyway.

:-D

Comment by crushliberalism — 6:02 pm
“The University of Virginia Board of Visitors has passed a resolution expressing regret for the school’s use of slave labor between 1819 and 1865.”

You know, Tex, I have thought about this issue for a long time, because on the surface you seem quite correct. However, one thing that occurs to me is that the labor from this exploitation continues to benefit The University of Virginia - in the buildings that were put up, and the financial savings that were accrued and bonded into scholarships, etc. Moreover, isn’t it also fair to say that this exploitation continues to harm those very African Americans whose ancestors did this work, as these ancestors had labor stolen from them which might have allowed them to leave a lasting legacy for their children.

As a good conservative, you do disapprove of a death tax - don’t you Tex? You do beleive in being able to build a legacy for your children? Wasn’t this in effect stolen from the original slaves? And doesn’t it continue to effect their descendents? From this perspective, an apology to those descendents for appropriating that legacy - and scholarships drawn from the wealth accumulated as a result of said slavery - appears more than fair.

Comment by djernigan — 7:04 pm
Hey TR , I’m sorry I didn’t steal your best girl in high school.

Comment by MrCynic1 — 10:26 pm
TR, I would like to offer my most sincere and heartfelt apology for not stealing your design for an anti-gravity device. I really mean this because I’d love to steal somebody’s design for an anti-gravity device.

djernigan: And how far back shall we go? Can I demand reparations from the Italian government for the damages the Romans did to my ancestors? Can the Irish in America demand payment from those who posted signs saying “Irish need not apply”?

All anyone can ask for is a level playing field. I’ll fight for that for anyone. Those who demand special treatment because their ancestors didn’t get a fair shake can smooch my entire backside.

Comment by USBeast — 8:40 pm
TR, I would really like to know more about the harmful effects of apologizing for something you didn’t do, especially when its uncalled for. while I must admit this particular case seems a little, well, dumber than usual, If an apology does not create more harm, then is it not good that we have apologized in the first place? I don’t know, maybe im with djernigan thinking that the world as a whole should be more apologetic, after all, Tuesday we all took time out of our busy day to remember the beginning of the Armenian genocide over 90 years ago right? right? heck, not even the citizens of the states the even recognize that the genocide happened know they recognize it, even fewer know what it is.

it probably is just me being crazy, but I don’t mind the apology. if they want to apologize, let em

Comment by Matt Gonzalez — 9:12 pm
“All anyone can ask for is a level playing field.”

I would settle for this as well. But only if we are serious. And by serious - I mean let’s get rid of all financial entitlements passed from one generation to the next. Let’s make the inheritance tax 100%. Only that will truly even the playing field.

Comment by djernigan — 10:43 pm
“Let’s make the inheritance tax 100%. Only that will truly even the playing field.”

djerigan, do you vote the Socialist Party each election? 100% inheritance tax? “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need? Sound familiar?

Have we abandoned our core principles that include “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?” That happpens to include property ownership; which includes material possessions (wealth) as well as real estate. Why should a person NOT be allowed to pass on the fruits of their labors?

Slavery, the Indian Wars, and the War Between the States are all history. Certainly not shining history for the US, but history, nonetheless. None of us alive today participated in any of those events. We should learned from them so as not repeat them, but I do not feel morally obligated to apologize or condone reparations.

Comment by Old Soldier — 6:16 am
Let’s make the inheritance tax 100%.

Oh.my.God.

I think I’ll go back to answer your rhetorical question “How stupid do you think I really am?”

Answer: Significantly. You’re nuttier than a syphilitic badger.

Comment by crushliberalism — 7:29 am
My point was a rhetorical one. If someone is going to point out that no reparations are due because - as things stand - at least there is an even playing field (as USBeast did) - I am going to point out what an even playing field would really look like. People simply aren’t born into this country on an even playing field. Some get all the best education - while some are educated in inner city slums. Do I really believe in 100% inheritance tax? Well. . . no. But I certainly don’t believe in the crap you guys are selling either.

So how far back should we go when deciding reparations? I’m not sure. But blindly raising this rhetorical blinder at the first whisper of reperations - well it does perform rhetorical wonders, doesn’t it — as it immediately changes the subject of the debate.

Well - I call hooey. It is a simple fact. There are insitutions and businesses which trace their lineage to slavery (The University of Virginia is one of them). At least in these cases - it should be a no brainer. The wealth of these institutions was founded upon stolen labor. So - even if we can’t give everyone equal financial opportunity (because to do so would be to force ourselves into a corrupting police state) - I think the very least we can do is track this money, seize it, and use it to provide as best we can for the education and social welfare of the descendents from which this labor was stolen.

So - no. We don’t go back to the Roman Empire. And neither do we don’t tax inheritance at 100%. But we should recognize that if we value our ability to be able to pass on financial legacies to our descendents so greatly (as you all apparently do) - consistency should force us to make amends to those who had that abilty stolen from them.

Tex began this thread by suggesting that the descendents of slaves have not suffered from slavery. My point is that this is flat out false. My point is that many of the descendents of slaves who now live lives of poverty and poor education - might have escaped that cycle by now had the labor of their ancestors not been stolen from them (Just ask yourself. How good would your education have been if your parents were slaves? Or your grandparents were slaves? Think about the economic and educational patterns of your ancestry that got you where you are today - just for half a minute). That some of this wealth still exists - while some of these descendents are still forced to send their kids to poorly funded inner city schools - is simply unconscionable .

Comment by djernigan — 10:40 am
“Think about the economic and educational patterns of your ancestry that got you where you are today - just for half a minute). That some of this wealth still exists - while some of these descendents are still forced to send their kids to poorly funded inner city schools - is simply unconscionable.”

I was the first person in my family (spanning many generations) to attempt to enroll in college. I then became the first to graduate from college, the first to attend and graduate from law school. Not because it was handed to me out of someone’s guilt for my ancestors’ plight, but because I had a desire to break the cycle of mediocrity.

Just because you steal from successful producers in society to give to the “poor” doesn’t mean you’ll change a damn thing about their situation or socioeconomic status… not until you incentivize them to get ahead. Throwing money at them without requiring results or a change in attitude does nothing but enable the situation. Like the alcoholic enabler who gives the alcoholic more booze because they dont want to see them go through the painful withdrawals… you’re just perpetuating the problem.

“I think the very least we can do is track this money, seize it, and use it to provide as best we can for the education and social welfare of the descendents from which this labor was stolen.”

And a formal apology from a college board accomplishes this how?

“There are insitutions and businesses which trace their lineage to slavery (The University of Virginia is one of them). At least in these cases - it should be a no brainer. The wealth of these institutions was founded upon stolen labor.”

But the benefits they now provide extend to ALL Americans. Unless you want to try and argue that descendants of slaves are barred from attending.

Comment by Texas Rainmaker — 1:40 pm
“I was the first person in my family (spanning many generations) to attempt to enroll in college. I then became the first to graduate from college, the first to attend and graduate from law school.”

Congratulations. Now prove that your situation is the rule - and not the exception - and maybe we can get womewhere with this dicscussion. Again with the strawman response. Of course SOME people pull themselves up by their bootstaps. Did I deny this? My point is that it is exceedingly rare.

“Just because you steal from successful producers in society to give to the “poor” doesn’t mean you’ll change a damn thing about their situation or socioeconomic status…”

Two points here:

One - There are ways of redistibuting wealth that don’t exactly involve simply “giving” money to the poor. Funds for inner city kids. Scholarships for the descendents of slaves who might not otherwise go to university (oh - I forgot - we wouldn’t want ANYTHING that looks remotely like affirmative action)

Two - What I am talking about is “stealing back” (we could, instead, call it what it is - a late payment for services rendered) from those institutions which simply wouldn’t have been such “succesful producers” without relying on slave labour. I mean really - how is it exactly that you feel justified in trying to paint these insititutions as fulfilling the embodiment of the American dream (successful producers indeed) when they did so at the expsnse of the American dream of so many others.

“And a formal apology from a college board accomplishes this how?”

Your right on this one. Its not nearly enough. But something tells me you would be even more incensed at financial reperations.

“But the benefits they now provide extend to ALL Americans. Unless you want to try and argue that descendants of slaves are barred from attending. ”

Yes I do - many descendents are barred simply as a result of economic situations which left them attending the worst public (underfunded) schools in the country.

Comment by djernigan — 8:04 pm
”Congratulations. Now prove that your situation is the rule…”

Condoleezza Rice descended from slaves.

Two points – 1) prove she is not the rule, 2) prove that all (or even a majority of) inhabitants of ghettos are descendants of slaves.

Your categorizing ghetto inhabitants as descendants of slaves and generalizing that slave descendants are not capable of anything better is blatant bigotry. Do you think every person living in a ghetto is a descendant of slaves? How about the millions of Haitians and Jamaicans that have immigrated to our soil? Do you think none of them now inhabit ghettos?

”…redistibuting wealth…”

Where have I heard that term before…, I know I’ve heard it somewhere! Seems like a political party advocates for such a thing – but they generally want to redistribute “my” wealth, not theirs which is neatly hidden away.

”…many descendents are barred simply as a result of economic situations which left them attending the worst public (underfunded) schools in the country.”

Ghetto schools being classified as “the worst public schools” is not a resultant of slavery – it is a resultant of the socio-behavioral traits of several generations. (Have you ever truly listened to any of Bill Cosby’s lectures on the subject?) And the last I knew, no one is barred from leaving such circumstances. Having an individual attitude and desire is a start toward breaking the ghetto containment philosophy you taught.

Comment by Old Soldier — 6:06 am
Condi Rice is a single example — which proves nothing - or do you know anything about what it means to PROVE something, dimwit?

“generalizing that slave descendants are not capable of anything better is blatant bigotry”

I very clearly cited socio-economic reasons for why they continue to live in poverty (funny - I never even used the word ghetto) - not racial reasons. But if you don’t know the difference - I guess that’s pretty typical of right-wing nut-job type thinking. And - yes - one’s economic status is VERY MUCH a barrier to “leaving such circumstances” - which you might understand if you had half the heart to pay attention to the cycle of poverty infecting this country’s poorest inhabitants. But - oh no. Go ahead and blindly (and self-interestedly) continue to believe in the myth of upward mobility.

Comment by djernigan — 10:23 am
Barriers are impossible to conquer… only if you allow them be. Even one example (though I could surely list thousands or millions of similar examples) proves the so-called barrier can be overcome. To act like it can’t is a cop-out. To blame, or penalize, others because some refuse to try is the wrong approach.

Comment by Texas Rainmaker — 10:35 am
“Condi Rice is a single example — which proves nothing - or do you know anything about what it means to PROVE something, dimwit?”

Okay, dimwit, I’ll ‘splain it to ya; I quoted your response to TR’s personal example of breaking a socio-economic barrier; as you like to call a lack of drive and motivation. The same example whereby you asked TR to “prove” that he was the rule. I ask you to do the same thing you asked of TR, and I’m a “dimwit?”

”I very clearly cited socio-economic reasons for why they continue to live in poverty…”

Your responses very clearly linked slavery to “poor” people’s strife, with a socio-economic comment tossed in for good measure. If you can’t remember what you write – try scrolling up a bit to reread.

My point in entering “ghetto” into the discourse was to see if you picked up on the fact that “ghettos” are not populated solely by black Americans and/or their descendants (and/or the descendants of slaves). There are and have been many races and nationalities that have populated “ghettos.” In other words, the poor come from more backgrounds than just slaves.

”…one’s economic status is VERY MUCH a barrier to “leaving such circumstances” - which you might understand if you had half the heart to pay attention to the cycle of poverty infecting this country’s poorest inhabitants.

Funny, it didn’t hold TR back and it didn’t hold my brothers or me back, either. If you are using your “heart” to analyze the “cycle of poverty;” you’re using the wrong organ – try using your “brain!” You moonbat liberals (that’s clearly a response to your “right-wing nut-job” jab) have had it wrong from the start – you cannot “kind heartedly” through my tax money at the “cycle of poverty” and expect it to solve the problem. It only makes you feel good until you realize it didn’t work. Sadly your typical “moonbat liberal” response is to throw more of my tax money at the problem rather than use your brain to actually solve the problem.

Get over yourself, djernigan, you don’t have all the angles; I don’t either, but at least I realize it… and I certainly realize that “feeling good” by apologizing to people who are descendants of those wronged is superficial and superfluous. This country faces much more serious issues that demand serious attention.

Comment by Old Soldier — 4:23 pm
Of course their are EXCEPTIONS to the fact that upward mobility is virtually impossible. I never said it was entirely impossible - now did I (I’m surpised you haven’t found examples of people who have won the lotto to support your position)? You guys keep on debating strawmen here; but if that’s what makes you comfortable with yourselves - well then have at it.

But if you want to engage in serious discussion on this topic - don’t show me single examples which PROVE absolutely nothing. Show me some type of statistical framework which proves that individuals who escape the cycle of poverty are anything more than a statistical anamoly or coincidence. TEX started this debate by suggesting that the descendents of slaves have not been harmed by slavery. Tex should, then, put up the statistics which really determine how likely it is that any individual will escape from poverty in any single generation - in order to see whether or not there really is a lingering residual effect. But since you keep holding out - we can start here - http://www.americanprogress.org/kf/hertz_mobility_analysis.pdf

And yes - I did link slavery to poor people’s strife. But I never even hinted at the possibility that poor people continue to be held back by their RACE (although I might have by pointing out residual racism). My Claim is that all poor peoples are held back by poverty - and, moreover, that African Americans are simply in the more difficult position of beggining in the 1860’s at a poverty rate of very near 100% (with the added detriment that they faced all kinds of serious discrimination until the 1960’s). None of the European immigrant migration waves (Irish, Italian) - while exceedingly impoverished themselves - began at such a low level as African Americans did. And so it IS purely a socio-economic argument I am making when I point out that the residual effects of slavery continue to disadvantage African Americans. You can try to spin this all night long about how this makes me a bigot - but you are simply lying. A classist? Yes. A bigot? NO. Argue honestly or not at all.

And as for me stubbornly holding my ground - Old Soldier - If you review my other posts you will see that I have compromised on a number of issues - while the rest of you have on exactly NONE. Of course - this doesn’t surpise me. I mean - I really don’t expect you to. But accusing me of thinking I have all the angles is just dishonest and disengaged from the discussion. Show me where I am wrong - and I WILL concede. But I really am tilting at windmills here, aren’t I?

Comment by djernigan — 7:48 pm
“There are ways of redistibuting wealth that don’t exactly involve simply “giving” money to the poor. Funds for inner city kids. Scholarships for the descendents of slaves who might not otherwise go to university”

I like how you tell us there are “ways ways of redistibuting wealth that don’t exactly involve simply “giving” money” then use, as examples, two methods that involve simply “giving money”…

“(oh - I forgot - we wouldn’t want ANYTHING that looks remotely like affirmative action)”

Nevermind that the answer is yes, as Affirmative Action, by nature, is a racist tool. But with this comment, it’s plain to see you think only non-whites were slaves. As with much of what you post here, you’re wrong. In fact, not only were there white slaves, but there were black masters in the South.

Welcome to reality, feel free to look around before you leave.

“Go ahead and blindly (and self-interestedly) continue to believe in the myth of upward mobility. ”

I’m living the proof of upward mobility. But go ahead and blindly continue to belief it’s a myth. (Probably helps you feel better about your own failure to succeed)

Comment by Texas Rainmaker — 7:50 pm
Go ahead and blindly (and self-interestedly) continue to believe in the myth of upward mobility.

Considering that I came from a family with no money, and became the first in my family to graduate from college, and that I now have a lucrative career in information technology, I think I will go ahead and believe the reality of upward mobility. Thanks for your permission.

That your life and career choices may be worthless, and that you are a loser, does not give you the right to project your failures on the rest of us.

Comment by crushliberalism — 8:47 pm
You continue to use isolated examples to prove trends. I HAVE NEVER denied that there are exceptions to anything I have claimed. Why do you continue to argue against strawmen?

You could do better. While looking around - I found actual DATA that supported your position (http://www.urban.org/publications/406722.html - although it was admittedly weaker than the data against your position - maybe this is why you are forced to generalize from individual examples).

Comment by djernigan — 8:53 pm
Nice. We provide specific example to disprove that socio-economic status is a barrier to success and you say we’re generalizing.

Then you turn around a point to unrelated phenomena to generalize a “trend” and call it specific proof.

Tell you what, how ’bout you go find a bum on skid row and give him half of everything you own so we can see how well “leveling the playing field” in your liberal utopia works out for everyone.

Comment by Texas Rainmaker — 9:19 pm
A specific example would only disprove the claim that upward mobility NEVER happens. I never claimed this. My claim is that it is rare. And a specific example (or even a series of examples) MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT disprove this claim. Go ahead - ask any of your old college buddies about the logic of this exchange - and they will tell you that your logic is completely skewed.

Moreover - I know that you are smart enough to see that your logic here is skewed - so why don’t you?!?

Comment by djernigan — 9:38 pm
And another thing — How exactly is it that a report which the following claim is unrelated to this discussion:

“Children from low-income families have only a 1 percent chance of reaching the top 5 percent of the income distribution , versus children of the rich who have a 22 percent chance”

You can dispute that the data is correct - or, perhaps, re-read it in such a way that that it doesn’t entirely support my position. But unrelated? We are arguing about the liklihood of upward mobility. This is data about upward mobility. If you somehow think individual experience is more important than scientifically collected data - then you REALLY need a lesson in the scientific method. And to think that you have had the nerve to call me a relativist concerning truth.

Comment by djernigan — 10:37 pm
Gee - I finally figured out what you are trying to say here.

“We provide specific example to disprove that socio-economic status is a barrier to success and you say we’re generalizing.”

First - I never said that socio-economic status is 100% a barrier to success - so your counter-examples mean nothing to my argument. And in that context - yes - you are generalizing. At least that is my best-faith interpretation of what you are trying to do. To give a specific example is not to generalize. But to give a specific example - and then act as if that single example either PROVES or disproves a TREND — MOST CERTAINLY IS TO GENERALIZE. That is precisely what the term means (if you don’t believe me, then check out line item 2 at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/generalize). Please - send my critique of how you think a single - or even several - examples disprove my claim that upward mobility is rare - to any logician in the world - and they will point out your faulty reasoning.

Comment by djernigan — 4:46 am
“And another thing — How exactly is it that a report which the following claim is unrelated to this discussion:”

The report doesn’t mention slaves or slave descendants. That’s where its unrelated. You keep speculating that all this data somehow justifies apologies and reparations to slaves and their descendants.

Comment by Texas Rainmaker — 5:25 am
Give it up, TR. Jerkagain is married to his “America sucks, the dream is dead, woe be to us who weren’t born into wealth, I’m a loser and thus so is everyone else” meme. No wonder he’s a liberal.

Comment by crushliberalism — 5:34 am
Gee Tex. . . have you really forgotten the argumentative path we have taken to get here? Somehow I doubt it. But let me remind you all the same.

It’s pretty simple really. My argument is that if upward mobility is as rare as I claim it is - then the consequences of slavery are still manifest - and reparations are reasonable. You seemed to understand this point well enough a few posts back when you were all gung ho to refute my claim that upward mobility is rare by pointing to single counter examples. Why suddenly the change of tactics? There are reasonable arguments to be made against my claim that upward mobility is rare - you just weren’t making them with your approach. And now - instead of having the decency to even admit that you have taken this small little illogical path - you backtrack and accuse me of citing irrelevancies.

Come on Tex - do the decent thing for once. Admit that it is illogical to argue against the claim that gold is rare simply by pointing at the ring on your finger. It’s a small point really. Very small. Tiny. Infintesimal.

Comment by djernigan — 9:52 am
I understand your argumentative path… I ask what good apologies for slavery are, and you tie that to the inability of some to advance their socio-economic status.

We show that it’s possible for descendants of slaves to elevate themselves to great positions of power within the government and you say that doesn’t prove anything.

We point out that some of us come from very low socio-economic statuses and have elevated ourselves to great success and you say that doesn’t prove anything.

You try to tie two unrelated issues together to make your “feel good” argument.

You then try to claim that if we can’t show that 50.1% of the black population hasn’t achieved the pinnacle of wealth, that we haven’t made our case. Totally ignoring the fact that slavery didn’t just affect non-whites and also ignoring the various other factors for why people don’t achieve wealth (desire to work in low-paying careers, learning disabilities, laziness, lack of motivation to succeed, etc).

And all this from my initial post wondering about the value of non-slave owners apologizing to non-slaves.

I’m curious, daniel, what have YOU done to make a slave wealthy?

Comment by Texas Rainmaker — 10:13 am
Thorny issue heres. But this statement is at the core of things:

“All anyone can ask for is a level playing field.”

This is a great idea. Perhaps The Great Idea. It requires society to counteract the huge advantages that kids can get from having wealthy parents, safe schools and well-connected friends and the equally huge disadvantages of growing up poor, around drugs and crime or with divorced parents. That is “leveling the playing field” and it is the project that the western world started when it revolted against class society and inhereted privilege in the eighteenth century. We’ve learned in the nineteenth century that doing away with titles does not do away with privilege. And we’ve learned in the twentieth century that squashing individual talent in order to really level the playing field can backfire.

What does a level playing field mean to a one-year old? Free healthcare, close developmental monitoring, cheap qualified childcare, etc. For a six year old it’s still free healthcare, free access to quality schools, food/shelter security. A twelve year old also needs free access to libraries and computer labs, but still mainly needs good quality healthcare, free schooling and food/shelter security. An eighteen year old STILL needs the same things.

Only when every child can grow up healthy and safe, with access to all levels of education, can we claim to have a level playing field. Of course connections will still matter in real life, and they can still win out over talent and determination, but that is human nature. And of course, society cannot provide absolute health and safety, and cannot educate beyond capability. But we can certainly go pretty far along that path.

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